I ran across some interesting numbers today, from 1980 to 2008 the population growth for Lee County was up 189%, we are the 12th fastest growing county in Georgia, and the 60th fastest growing county in the US. The web site said our County was listed as undergoing “Explosive Growth”. Something to be proud of you might say, people want to move here because of the “Quality of Life” but a word of caution from someone who has lived through this before, with striking similarities.
In 1983 I moved to south Gwinnett County, bought a house in Lilburn and move away 13 years later in1996. In 1983, the schools were rated excellent and Gwinnett County was to become the fastest growing county in the US, still listed at #4 in Georgia and #14 in the nation in growth.
I remember the 2 lane Hwy to my subdivision being expanded to 4 with the increased traffic, the losing fight the subdivision had over an Apartment complex being built behind us and when we left, of the growing gang problem in the middle school my youngest son attended, the schools no longer rated excellent.
On a recent trip to Atlanta, I visited the old neighborhood, the trees I planted now fully mature, that 4 lane hwy now a 7 lane hwy, the houses a little less well kept and the predominant language heard – Spanish, the apartment complex looking its age. More recently, news of a tax payer revolt over a proposed 42% hike in property taxes. The tax payers won for now. It should be noted though, that Gwinnett has a much higher business tax base than Lee County and business picks up a higher share of the tax digest.
So maybe it’s good thing not to have basic services such as Fire or EMS or that the County deputies are only seen when called. Who would want to move or setup a business in North Lee without basic services? But I do love the country life.
Still, it galls me that I pay the same tax rate for services not receive that others receive. I have a proposition to the County Commissioners, you take the largest precinct in Lee County, larger in land area than all the others combined, and keep the missing basic services, just rebate us the difference, that would be most of the taxes we pay. After all we live here because we love the country life.
-Mike Sabot
Land area means next to nothing in elections/division of services. It is about population centers, and in Lee County that means basically the City of Leesburg and the southern region of the county.
Honestly, I haven’t followed Lee County as well as I should, and if there is a complete lack of Fire/EMS service at the north end of the county, it certainly needs to be addressed – particularly the Fire aspect. I actually think a private EMS service would be a better option for ALL areas, so I’m not going to be pushing as heavily for government-backed EMS service ANYWHERE.
That said, Fire protection in particular should be based on a set level + population – much the same way the US Congress is. Each region of the county gets “2 Senators”, and every X number of people gets “1 Represtenative”. At every census, just like Congressional Districts are redrawn based on shifting populations, so should fire and any other government service.
Thus, while some areas of the county might become Wyoming (3 members of Congress: 2 Senators and 1 Rep), others might be California (half of Congress, or so it seems sometimes).
When it comes to land area and Fire/EMS response time it sure does matter. A matter of life and death.
The further you are away from a location the longer it takes. The north lee county area is 205 sq miles, the other 4 together are less than 30 sq miles, they have 3 fire/ems units to cover them. The north has 0 ie, no basic service.
When it comes to Life and Death situations, Most cities base it not upon population but response times and position Fire and EMS stations where they can provide overlapping coverage to meet the set response time they set. When you have all the coverage on side and none on the other, you have major problems in your design.
Again, if there is ZERO, I completely agree, there are issues. There should be some base level based on land area (Senators, from my earlier analogy), then additional service based on population (Representatives).
Thinking that all land area should be covered to the same level only promotes inefficiency, as the less populous land area regions have just as much resources allocated to them as the more populous regions – with FAR less actual work for those resources. In other words, while an EMS technician in a more populous area might see 10-15 calls per day, the EMS technician in the less populous area might see that volume in a WEEK – yet both EMT techs are getting paid the same amount, assuming both are equally qualified. So it becomes ripe for cronyism and corruption, introducing even greater inefficiencies.
No, one of the wisdoms of the Founding Fathers was in addressing this resource allocation problem in Congress, and I think that model is the best one to follow in ANY government resource-allocation decision.
Let me see Jeff, basically you are saying that if I live downtown where there are more people than the person in suburb, that their property or life is more important just because there are more of them.
Some how that just doesn’t equate to what the founding fathers said about equality for all.
You are arguing only from a financial point. How can you compare the 2?
I’m a Capitalist. You get what you pay for. No more, no less.
More populated areas pay more in taxes, and therefore they get more government services. Live in a less populated area and don’t like your level of service? Privately pay for more or move to an area with the service level you’d like.
And here I thought you were a Libertarian. Since I’m not getting the service, how about you picking up my tab. Sounds fair to me… I not into income redistrubution, paying for your services.
I’d actually say that getting what you pay for would equal getting the same services for the money that everyone else paying the same in taxes should get. Extra services being available in the city than in the county is what it is.
But Jeff, I don’t think I can call this capitalism. This is a government monopoly on services while not providing equal services to northern Lee County. It sounds like folks up that way aren’t getting what they pay for.
That’s just the point I’ve been trying to make.
As I’ve said, if you’re getting NO service, and I have no reason to not believe you on that one, then I completely agree there is a problem there. I’m simply pointing out that for an area such as northern Lee County to expect the exact same level of service as southern Lee County is ridiculous.
Look at grocery store availability. In southern Lee County, there will soon be 3 grocery stores: Walmart, Winn Dixie, and Publix – and that isn’t counting the 2 or 3 others that are within a mile of the LeDo line on the DoCo side. In Leesburg, there are 2: Rubos and Leesburg IGA (formerly known as Jenkins’). In Smithville, to my knowledge, you have just a single one, correct? Are you arguing that just because some people are up there, they should have three grocery stores as well?
Jeff, no one is saying equal, but we are talking response time. And to make the comparison of Life vs. grocery stores is lame. You don’t compare apples and oranges.
The point you keep missing is that this is a basic service that the county which collects the taxes for should provide.
Basic services are the bare min that a county level government should provide to all of it’s citizens. If the basic services are not provided the County is not doing it’s job. The taxes collected go to pay for these, they provide
Basic services for Lee county are:
1. Fire
2. EMS – since they do not contract it out.
3. Police
4. Garbage – contracted out but but money is collected by the county, the fees charge are above and in addition to taxes.
5. Roads & Hwy
6. Schools – Separate taxes collected for this.
I receive 4,5,and 6
I get 1,2,3 only when called, 3 does not perform any patrols, and because they come from the prison area when called is an 8-20 min time. Besides hunting That’s one reason why most people up here have a gun. You would be dead and the crook long gone before the sheriff would show up. We also have far fewer break-ins.
I get 1 and 2 only when called, just like every one else, but because of the distance, it is 12-20 min.
If a person has a heart attack, every min counts in saving his life. Standards nation wide for delivery of this service is for EMS to arrive in less that 5 min.
With 3 ems stations in the south end of the county they meet this standard. North of Leesburg they don’t same for fire
This county will bail out a golf course so it can meet payroll, put a new $50k roof on a club house or borrow 1.5mil to expand a new meeting room from 300 to 400 people but it can not keep its promise to build a fire/ems station in the North end of the county.
What it comes to is you get what you pay for if you live in that 30sq miles called the south end of the country but if you live in that 208 sq mile north end of the county you get squat for what you pay for.
Mike:
You get what you pay for. PERIOD. You admit that you GET the service. Your problem is that you don’t get it to your liking. If northern Lee County wants the same services as southern Lee County, we should create a Tax Allocation District or some such and raise the taxes in northern Lee County so that y’all are putting just as much money in the county budget as southern Lee County. THEN you would have a legitimate complaint about service level. As it is, you are saying ‘from each according to their ability, to each according to his need’ – exactly the same as Karl Marx.
Hell, dude, I live just inside the city limits of Leesburg practically right beside a fire station, and it STILL takes a good 5-10 minutes for them to get to my house! I could literally WALK to the fire station in less time than that! And you’re complaining about being 15 miles away and the service time is only 5 minutes slower?
I’m completely with you on Grand Island and the Library – I really don’t think we need a new library, period, and recreation (like Garbage, btw) is NOT a valid function of government, at ANY level.
You still equate life to the $, your fire service comes from the city and not the county. My home insurance does the same, I pay more because they feel the same as you, the risks are much higher because of the lack of the service.
Just as you expect equal protection under the law, I expect equal protection for life. Since I’m not, rebate me some money.
One last item, you equate taxes to density of population, where as county taxes are based upon property, therefor since the north end of the county is so much larger, 205 sq miles to the 30 sq, we are paying a much higher and disapportionat level of tax for far less services. So the bit about Marx applies more to you than me.
One last last item, Jeff, and then I quit.
As a libertarian, do you realize how close your arguments are to the Federal government? Let’s take from those who have and redistribute!! It’s scary.
Not to get you boys off the finer points of EMS and libertarianism, but what the heck does people speaking spanish have to do with anything?
.-= griftdrift´s last blog ..My Wingfield Something Something =-.
Part of the whole shift of the social/economic flight that occurs in areas. With the effect that areas once consider afulent slowly degrade. Gwineett county was one of those counties that refused to join the MARTA system, the people felt that bringing mass transit to the county would bring undesirables, rather than being a economic boost. The neighborhoods still changed, the affuent fled still futher north in the county. The Hispanic community is growing in the Metro Altanta area. An area that was once vibrant and diverse is now in decline, and no longer diverse.
Same in Lee, Albany for the same period shows a 5% lost of population. People leave and move to Lee. Why? Will the same areas here suffer the same fate in 20 years?
Okay. Now I’m really confused. The hispanic community grows yet the neighborhood becomes less diverse? Do you mean something else? Why dance around it?
.-= griftdrift´s last blog ..My Wingfield Something Something =-.
Did you ever hear of the policliticaly incorrect term of white flight? The neighborhood is less diverse, the whites and the blacks have all moved north, and the Hispanics have filled the the empty space. If you now only have one ethic group living there you are less diverse. When I lived there, it was a mix of white, black, oriental. The metro area of Atlanta, is becoming pockets of only 1 ethic group. For example, Buford Hwy inside the perimeter has become like China town, Gwineett just out side of the perimeter upto the mall area is becomming little mexico. It’s no longer a melting pot, but a seperation of ethic groups. The result is a whole change in Business also, Jimmy Carter Bldv, resembles a getto now, Gwinett mall a low end mall, with the high end stores having moved out to the new mall in Buford.
The dance continues. Mexicans move in and things go to hell is your basic premise.
As someone who actually still lives in the metro area, I can assure you Buford Hwy is far from China Town. You see, some of those squiggles on the signs are Vietnamese and Korean and Cambodian. By golly, some are ever Ukrainian and Russian.
Oh, and the International Mall located on Buford Hwy is a melange of different cultures. Including, yes, Mexicans. And Cubans. And Salvadorans. And Nicaraguans. And other spanish speaking people who are not Mexicans.
Painting caricatures may make your arguments easier but they don’t make them better.
.-= griftdrift´s last blog ..My Wingfield Something Something =-.
When I lived there, yes there Vietnamese, and Koreans and others, we still called it china town. And yes there were some pockets of Hispanics on Buford Hwy, but the premise is still the same, pockets, not a mix, go to one apt complex and the majority was group go to another a different group. My old neighborhood was almost 100% Hispanic now, and when I walk the streets, I didn’t hear much English spoken. When neighborhoods go all one way, its not good. My 2 girls didn’t speak English until they went to school, we spoke Spanish at home. At that point we stopped speaking Spanish and spoke English. My wife had a hard time, but my girls became fluent in a matter of months. My Korean martial arts teacher and wife had problems, but their children didn’t because they lived in a mixed diverse neighborhood. He fled too as the area changed.
It’s not a caricature, it is reality.
Groups that tend to congregate by cultural identity, will retain that cultural identity, but at the expense of merging into the mainstream. The mainstream will flee, the majority of businesses that support them flee what’s left changes to accommodate a single cultural identity. The trickle of new business that form to support the single cultural identity is not enough to maintain the economic growth of the area. I saw that on Jimmy Carter Blvd. from what was there 30 years ago. I saw that at Gwinnett Mall from 30 years ago. My view is not one of the short term snapshot of now but one of what existed 30 years ago and today.